I was reading Moses 7 this evening, where Enoch has an extensive discussion with the Lord. It’s quite confusing if you believe the LDS tradition about Elohim being the Father and Jehovah being the Son.
In the previous chapter, Enoch had been preaching to the people and taught:
Moses 6:57
of Holiness is his name, and the name of his Only Begotten is the , even , a righteous , who shall come in the meridian of time.
Man of Holiness = Father = Elohim.
Son of Man = Jesus Christ = Jehovah.
In Chapter 7, Enoch is talking to the Lord, which is ambiguous. But when the Lord responds to Enoch, he gives away his identity.
Moses 7:35
Behold, I am God; of Holiness is my name; Man of Counsel is my name; and Endless and Eternal is my , also.
So Enoch is talking to Elohim, God the Father. As a second witness:
Moses 7
50 And it came to pass that Enoch continued his cry unto the Lord, saying: I ask thee, O Lord, in the name of thine Only Begotten, even Jesus Christ, that thou wilt have mercy upon Noah and his seed, that the earth might never more be covered by the .
51 And the Lord could not withhold; and he with Enoch, and sware unto him with an oath, that he would stay the ; that he would call upon the children of Noah;
The Lord Enoch is speaking to is the Father, because he is asking in the name of his Only Begotten, Jesus Christ. The next verses seem to support it being the Father doing the talking.
54 And it came to pass that Enoch cried unto the Lord, saying: When the Son of Man comes in the flesh, shall the earth rest? I pray thee, show me these things.
55 And the Lord said unto Enoch: Look, and he looked and beheld the lifted up on the , after the manner of men;
56 And he heard a loud voice; and the heavens were ; and all the creations of God mourned; and the earth ; and the rocks were rent; and the arose, and were at the of the Son of Man, with crowns of glory;
57 And as many of the as were in came forth, and stood on the right hand of God; and the remainder were reserved in chains of darkness until the judgment of the great day.
OK – the Son of Man is also God. We’re still safe, right?
59 And Enoch beheld the Son of Man ascend up unto the Father; and he called unto the Lord, saying: Wilt thou not come again upon the earth? Forasmuch as thou art God, and I know thee, and thou hast sworn unto me, and commanded me that I should ask in the name of thine Only Begotten; thou hast made me, and given unto me a right to thy throne, and not of myself, but through thine own grace; wherefore, I ask thee if thou wilt not come again on the earth.
60 And the Lord said unto Enoch: As I live, even so will I come in the , in the days of wickedness and vengeance, to fulfil the which I have made unto you concerning the children of Noah;
Stop the presses! Enoch asks the Father in the name of the Only Begotten if the Father will come again on the earth. And the Father says he will come in the last days. Doesn’t Elohim realize that Jehovah is supposed to do that? Elohim is having a serious identity crisis.
62 And will I send down out of heaven; and truth will I send forth out of the earth, to bear of mine Only Begotten; his from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called , a .
65 And it came to pass that Enoch saw the of the of the Son of Man, in the last days, to dwell on the earth in righteousness for the space of a thousand years;
Does Elohim come again, or the Son of Man? The Lord seems to thinks it’s both. I don’t know how anyone can reconcile this chapter of scripture with the Elohim/Jehovah concept the LDS Church preaches. It’s too bad the LDS Church doesn’t believe the Book of Mormon, which explains Moses 7 easily.
Mosiah 13:28, 33-34
And moreover, I say unto you, that doth not come by the alone; and were it not for the , which God himself shall make for the sins and iniquities of his people, that they must unavoidably perish, notwithstanding the law of Moses.
For behold, did not Moses prophesy unto them concerning the coming of the Messiah, and that God should redeem his people? Yea, and even the prophets who have prophesied ever since the world began—have they not spoken more or less concerning these things? Have they not said that himself should come down among the children of men, and take upon him the form of man, and go forth in mighty power upon the face of the earth?
Mosiah 15:1-5
And now Abinadi said unto them: I would that ye should understand that God himself shall come down among the children of men, and shall redeem his people. And because he dwells in flesh he shall be called the Son of God, and having subjected the flesh to the will of the Father, being the Father and the Son-The Father, because he was conceived by the power of God; and the Son, because of the flesh; thus becoming the Father and Son-And they are one God, yea, the very Eternal Father of heaven and of earth. And thus the flesh becoming subject to the Spirit, or the Son to the Father, being one God, suffers temptation, and yields not to the temptation, but suffers himself to be mocked, and scourged, and cast out, and disowned by his people.
Alma 42:15
And now, the plan of mercy could not be brought about except an atonement should be made; therefore God himself for the sins of the world, to bring about the plan of , to appease the demands of , that God might be a , just God, and a God also.
Ether 3:14
Behold, I am he who was prepared from the foundation of the world to redeem my people. Behold, I am Jesus Christ. I am the Father and the Son. In me shall all mankind have life, and that eternally, even they who shall believe on my name; and they shall become my sons and my daughters.
Those verses fly in the face of the Elohim/Jehovah doctrine. But they actually support Moses 7. Maybe we should just believe the Book of Mormon.
In parting, here’s another verse the LDS Church should embrace.
Mosiah 16:15
Teach them that redemption comes through Christ the Lord, who is the very Eternal Father. Amen.
Great scriptures to prove the truthfulness of the Lectures on Faith given to a Rejected Church!
In Mosiah it also shows clearly that Abinadi was put to death by the leadership of a very socially organized fallen wicked church for declaring that…
Mosiah 17
7 And he said unto him: Abinadi, we have found an accusation against thee, and thou art worthy of death.
8 For thou hast said that God himself should come down among the children of men; and now, for this cause thou shalt be put to death unless thou wilt recall all the words which thou hast spoken evil concerning me and my people.
This is why many of us have been cast out of the very social modern Mormon church and have been put to death, in their mind spiritually by them casting blasphemers out of it!
One other quick point since you brought up this particular scripture, that it is an Excellent example showing the return of the servants in Power to bring forth Zion…
62 And righteousness (Servants )will I send down out of heaven; and truth (The Word/Scripture) will I send forth out of the earth, to bear testimony of mine Only Begotten; his resurrection from the dead; yea, and also the resurrection of all men; and righteousness and truth will I cause to sweep the earth as with a flood, to gather out mine elect from the four quarters of the earth, unto a place which I shall prepare, an Holy City, that my people may gird up their loins, and be looking forth for the time of my coming; for there shall be my tabernacle, and it shall be called Zion, a New Jerusalem.
So are you saying that when Christ was here on earth during his ministry that there was no god in heaven?
Nope, not saying that. But the LDS notion that the Father and the Son are two separate resurrected men is false. You would need to read my other posts on the nature of God and the listen to some of the podcasts – there is too much information for a comment.
But the simplified version is that God the Father is like ocean. When Jesus was born, some of that ocean water was put into a container, or a tabernacle of flesh. The water was the same, but distinct. Jesus was in the Father, and the Father in him. So God could be on earth (in the container or tabernacle of flesh) while also remaining in heaven (in the ocean).
So then do all men receive a tabernacle of flesh except god? Are our spirits also then part of that “ocean”? But not as great a portion or “intelligence” that is Christ?
Those are good questions.
Mosiah 15:1-5 explains that God himself will come down and dwell in the flesh. It then goes on to explain how the Father (a personage of spirit) and the Son (a personage of tabernacle) are one God. This gets into the “two powers” notion of God that ancient Israel believed, where God manifest himself as both a spirit and as human form.
As for what we are originally made of, there isn’t enough information in the scriptures to answer that definitely. But when we receive the gift of the Holy Ghost, we are spiritually reborn and “linked” to the ocean. Lectures on Faith 5 tells us Jesus was “filled with the fullness of the mind of the Father, or in other words, the spirit of the Father, which spirit is shed forth upon all who believe on his name and keep his commandments; and all those who keep his commandments shall grow from grace to grace and become heirs of the heavenly kingdom, and joint heirs with Jesus Christ; possessing the same mind, being transformed into the same image or likeness…and become one in him, even as the Father, Son, and Holy Spirit are one.” It’s definitely a different notion of God than what we are taught in Sunday School.
By the way I am starting on all of your podcasts but it is a lot of listening to do. I am amazed at your guy’s knowledge of the scriptures. How does one start to learn like you guys have done? Do you have a recommended structure to follow? It can’t be just read the scriptures because I’ve been doing that all my life and realize how ignorant I am when I listen to the podcast. Perhaps it’s been my indoctrination in the LDS way of learning that has kept me ignorant. Also I believe finding your guys’ blogs was an answer to a prayer. As I was beginning to feel lost and uninspired with the church’s teachings.
That’s why we started doing the podcasts…to allow people to get a jump-start on what the scriptures really teach. It will take several years of consistent effort to undo the indoctrination we all grew up with. Be patient. As you search the scriptures, read what it actually says versus what you’ve been taught it says. Ask yourself, “If this says X, does that mean Y?”. Often, you’ll conclude, “Yes, that does mean Y, which means that Z, that I’ve been taught all my life, can’t be true!”. Then you can search to find out why Z isn’t true and replace that false idea with truth from the scriptures.